並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep28-%E5%B0%8B%E6%89%BE%E5%A4%A9%E8%B3%A6-%E4%BD%A0%E7%9F%A5%E9%81%93%E8%87%AA%E5%B7%B1%E7%9A%84%E5%A4%A9%E8%B3%A6%E6%98%AF%E4%BB%80%E9%BA%BC%E5%97%8E-%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E6%89%BE%E5%88%B0%E8%87%AA%E5%B7%B1%E7%9A%84%E5%A4%A9%E8%B3%A6-%E5%80%8B%E4%BA%BA%E5%84%AA%E5%8B%A2%E6%AA%A2%E6%B8%AC%E5%B7%A5%E5%85%B7/id1529630020?i=1000513832391