並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep45-%E8%81%8A%E8%81%8A%E8%BC%AA%E8%BF%B4%E4%BA%A4%E5%8F%89-%E5%B7%A6%E8%A7%92%E5%BA%A6%E4%BA%A4%E5%8F%89%E4%B9%8B%E6%A0%A1%E6%BA%96/id1508882911?i=1000583797665