並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/episode-30-%E5%B0%8F%E8%81%8A%E8%87%AA%E5%B7%B1%E7%9A%84%E4%BA%BA%E9%A1%9E%E5%9C%96%E9%80%9A%E9%81%93-43-23/id1577399272?i=1000577566561