並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-%E9%81%8E%E5%AE%8C%E5%B9%B4%E4%BD%A0%E4%B9%9F%E8%A6%81%E8%BD%89%E8%81%B7%E5%97%8E-%E5%B1%A5%E6%AD%B7%E9%9D%A2%E8%A9%A6%E6%80%8E%E9%BA%BC%E5%81%9A-feat-2030-%E8%BD%89%E8%81%B7%E5%9C%B0%E5%9C%96-%E4%BD%9C%E8%80%85-sandy-su/id1548924390?i=1000510146647