並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep85-%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E9%9D%A2%E5%B0%8D%E5%88%86%E6%89%8B%E5%BE%8C%E7%9A%84%E7%99%82%E5%82%B7%E6%9C%9F-%E5%A4%B1%E6%88%80%E8%A6%81%E6%80%8E%E9%BA%BC%E8%B5%B0%E5%87%BA%E4%BE%86/id1532866021?i=1000569600382