並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E4%B8%80%E8%91%89%E8%8D%89%E7%9A%84%E7%99%BD%E8%A2%8D%E6%89%8B%E6%9C%AD-%E5%B8%B6%E4%BD%A0%E8%B2%BC%E8%BF%91%E9%86%AB%E5%AD%B8-%E4%B8%80%E8%91%89%E8%8D%89-xc6pQVjk0Tz/