並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E4%B8%AD%E5%BB%A3%E6%B5%81%E8%A1%8C%E7%B6%B2/20200909-%E8%B6%99%E5%B0%91%E5%BA%B7%E6%99%82%E9%96%93-%E5%B0%88%E8%A8%AA%E6%84%9B%E6%81%A8%E5%B8%9D%E7%8E%8B%E5%AE%B6%E8%91%89%E8%A8%80%E9%83%BD-%E6%95%99%E6%8E%88-9gm3oP_FRZi/