並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%A8%81%E6%AD%B7%E7%88%B8%E7%88%B8%E7%9A%84%E5%BA%8A%E9%82%8A%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B/211029-%E9%9A%B1%E8%97%8F%E5%9C%A8%E5%B1%B1%E9%87%8E%E4%B9%8B%E9%96%93%E7%9A%84%E8%90%BD%E6%B0%B4%E5%B1%B1%E8%8E%8A-W0GkiXZ-lvd/