並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%B0%8F%E7%B4%80%E8%80%81%E5%B8%AB%E7%9A%84%E5%B9%B8%E7%A6%8F%E5%AD%B8/e78-l-%E8%80%81%E5%A8%98%E6%9C%89%E9%8C%A2-P2A3c0eX_pf/