並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%97%8D%E9%AF%A8%E5%86%92%E9%9A%AA%E9%9A%8A-%E8%97%8D%E9%AF%A8%E5%86%92%E9%9A%AA%E9%9A%8A-cPuht7emD1G/