並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%AC%9B%E6%AD%8C%E4%B8%8D%E5%94%B1%E6%AD%8C-%E9%9F%B3%E6%A8%82%E8%A3%A1%E7%9A%84%E6%B5%AA%E6%BC%AB%E7%A5%95%E5%AF%86/%E5%AF%B6%E8%97%8D%E8%89%B2%E6%9B%96%E6%98%A7%E9%99%B3%E7%B6%BA%E8%B2%9E%E5%BC%B5%E9%9B%A8%E7%94%9F-%E5%A4%A9%E5%A4%A9%E6%83%B3%E4%BD%A0-jPlOt8RAG3T/