並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%98%BF%E5%96%84%E5%B8%AB%E9%91%91%E8%AD%98%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84-%E9%98%BF%E5%96%84%E5%B8%AB%E8%A3%BD%E4%BD%9C%E5%9C%98%E9%9A%8A-K0daU1_jSfN/